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Civil War: The implications and fallout - Enchantress - 07-02-2006
For those of you reading the Civil War (and if you aren't you should kick yourself now):
So far, what are your thoughts.
The Civil War books we are getting are:
The Amazing Spider-Man
Fantastic Four
The New Avengers
Civil War
I'm only about a few issues into it (we have Civil War #2 laying here) and I have to say, a few things have me.
I know we've got other forums to talk about the implications in the books other than the Avengers, but since the heavy hitters are deeply involved in the Civil War, I thought this was the best place for it.
1: I'm a bit miffed that the whole FF storyline surrounding Mjoliner seemingly disappeared when the Civil War books started. I was happy to see at the end of the latest issue I have (issue 538) they do address it, somewhat.
2: Spider-Man. We all know what's going to happen next. Now that his rogue's gallery knows who he is, MJ is a walking target. Joe Quesada has went on record saying he hates the Peter/MJ marriage. It's making it hard to attract new fans. No one wants to read about a 32 year old married Spider-Man, except us long time fans. Peter's life has had so much tragedy in it, I think Tony Stark and his push for Peter to sign the registration act just added a whole other chapter to that.
3: Captain America. ROCK ON CAP! It's great to see the Symbol of Liberty taking such a big stand. Does it matter that half the known world knows who Steve Rogers is? No, to him it's the principal of the matter.
4:Superhero registration smacks to me of "Mutant Registration." if I see so much as one X-Man falling in line with this, I'll be sorely disappointed. This is, if anything, the very thing the X-men have fought against for decades. And it doesn't jive with the whole X-universe.
Thoughts? Perceptions? Ideas?
- The Truth - 07-02-2006
Books The Truth is getting:
Civil War
Ms. Marvel
She-Hulk
X-Factor
New Avengers
Runaways and Young Avengers
And as much as I hate to break it to you Chanty.....I can name at least two mutants (and one Former mutant) who are on board with the idea as of this past Wensday. X-Men? Not so much. Fan known mutants? Without a doubt. And when I say they are on board, I mean they've signed on the dotted line and everything. And while I personally didn't like it, I can't argue with it. The reasons they gave make sense and it does in fact fit with their characters.
As for the implications? Well, I think we've seen a few already. Spidey going public, Cap becoming a wanted fugitive, friends on edge with friends, old allies being contacted, new ones being formed..... By the end of it all, regardless of the act going through or not, a lot of characters and their relationships with each other are going to be changed signifigantly. Well....except for their relationships with Hulk. Because when he gets back he's going to be pissed at everyone.
- Rhapsody's Scream - 07-13-2006
if you've read the T-bolts tie-in (104) that just came out this week... you get a HUGE hint of what may happen next in Civil War...
[spoil]apparently, the whole "jail" thingie that Richards, Starks and Pym are working on is useful only if Zemo uses his moonstones's space folding abilities (I don't really know how to describe it) so really, all the power is in Zemo's hands. While he and the T-Bolts are arresting the unregistered villains, they're also brainwashing(?)/convincing them to join the T-bolts, thus creating a giant army... and at the end of the book, Zemo meets with Capt, Hercules and Falcon and tries to convince them to enter his scheme...
What I'm thinking is that - of course he's playing both sides - but he'll be proposing to the Resistance to let themselves get captured and when the moment arives, he let's them loose and together with her pumped up T-bolts, utterly destroys the the pro registration group...
or it's just a ploy to get the resistance in custody.[/spoil]
It was a much better issue than T-bolts have been doing in the past... although I still don't like a bunch of the characters...
I really like the FF tie-ins too. The whole Reed vs. Sue thing that's developping is quite interesting.
And Civil War: Front Line is quite interesting too... it follows newly incarcerated and powerless Speedball as well as shows scenes of combat between pro registration heroes and Resistance members... (mostly C-list characters and lower) We follow Ben Urich and Sally Floyd around too.
- Enchantress - 07-14-2006
As evident from the list Truth and I posted, neither of us read Thunderbolts. I think there was a thread some time ago about the reasonings behind it.
My favorite Civil War artwork so far has been Amazing Spider-Man. Of course, I feel Spider-Man is the whole linchpin to the entire arch. Something big is going to happen involving him, other than his demasking, and it's going to set the entire Marvel U on it's tails when it does.
- The Truth - 07-14-2006
I'm not getting that feeling for whatever reason. It just seems so.....obvious. I mean, with all the attention on Peter already, having him become the focal piece of the story just makes to much sense. I'd rather put my money on some C-Lister suddenly becoming the poster boy.
- Enchantress - 07-14-2006
And I think that's why it WILL be Peter. Everyone is half expecting a C-list hero to come out as the Civil War poster boy, but Tony Stark already made sure that Peter was that.
I serious think Aunt May or Mary Jane are in for. Maybe both of them, who knows.
- SLVRSR4 - 07-18-2006
I LOVE GIANT COMPANY WIDE CROSSOVERS AND EVENTS! Even though I have been burned by the majority of them. (House of M was flaming poo on a stick)
This one has actually been delivering the goods since the word go. Even the tie-in books have been good, which usually isn't the case. The most recent issue of FF has left my jaw still dragging the ground! I hope Marvel can continue to shake things up, and I hope they don't chicken out in the end, and say "OH, EVERYTHING'S BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS. EVERYBODY'S FRIENDS NOW AGAIN, AND WE CAN ALL HAVE A GROUP HUG!"
If they pull that kind of crap, I hope Thanos kills them all.
- Rhapsody's Scream - 07-20-2006
I understand why you're not getting T-bolts anymore, I thought about dropping it myself, but didn't... anyway, I like that they have such a big part in CW... they even have cameos in the core book.
about this month's issue: [spoiler] Thor is back! or is he? and he fried 4 resistance member, Hercules, Dagger, Luke Cage and Hawkeye, so we're taking a wild guess and saying he's pro-reg... [/spoiler]
I do think that they'll have CW have longlasting effects in MU continuity, maybe not for years and years, but atl east for 1 or 2 years... I mean Cap's not gonna forget his "friends" turning on him like that.
The more I read, the more I think they're protraying Tony, Reed and Hank as the bad guys i.e. crazy scientists.
- The Truth - 07-20-2006
Well, Tony's been evil before, and Hank isn't without his a-hole moments (He is the one that built robots to attack his friends so he could play hero isn't he?)....but I think Reed's just caught up in the excitement of things. When he thinks he's on the brink of something special he does tend to develop a sort of tunnel vision.
- Enchantress - 07-26-2006
Just finished reading my last issue of Civil War (#3 I think) and my jaw DROPPED at the end of it!
[spoiler]WOOHOOO! THOR'S BACK BABY! YEAH! I don't think I could be any more excited about that, however I'm intersted in seeing how it pans out. I always pegged the Mighty One as one of Cap's boys...[/spoiler]
- Rhapsody's Scream - 07-26-2006
I understand what you're saying Enchantress, [spoiler] I thought Thor would be on Cap's side, but since his lightning struck Hercules, Hawkeye, Dagger and Luke Cage, who are all in the Resistance... I'm thinking he might be on IM's side, especially with the Project Lightning (I know it's not "project" but I can't remember what they called it) which probably is all about Thor... well, I'm 90% sure he's with IM for the time being anyway.[/spoiler]
Have any of you picked up the CW: Runaways & Young Avengers #1 that came out today? it's a 4 issue mini and it's a great starting point if you don't know either them or only one of them.
[spoiler] The Runaways, now reshuffled to contain Nico, Chase, Molly, Karolina, Victor and Xavin (and of course, Old Lace) are blissfully unaware of the SRA and get in trouble back in LA. The YA are left in the underground lair and they're scanning the airwaves when they find newsreel of the Runaways' altercation with the Capekillers, the ask Cap the permission to leave and go to LA to set-up Resistance over there and recruit the Runaways, but Cap refuses... that doesn't stop them from leaving for LA in what looks like a Quinjet(?) Wiccan casts a locating spell and they arrive at the Runaways' lair.
Victor as a synthetic being, wasn't given the gentle treatment the other underaged runaways received and his body is badly damaged, Chase is trying to figure out how to repair him. Molly storms out of the lair only to find the YA on their doorsteps, when they introduce themselves as the YA, she only hears Avengers and freaks, since they discovered that the Avengers are working to find the unsigned supers. She lifts a jeep and throws it at them... after a little bit, they enter the lair with a unconscious Molly only to be received badly by the Runaways. Meanwhile, Vision approaches Victor from the back and the damaged android and the Vision's interaction provokes electric strikes everywhere... to be continued. [/spoiler]
I'm very psyched about this series, hopefully it'll be really good... Vaughan and Cheung are "helping" the writer with their respective characters.
- The Mighty Thor - 07-27-2006
I have a very strong feeling that I am in the minority here, but in all honesty I am a Pro-Registration guy. Does it suck that Earth's heroes are being forced into this situation? Yes, but especially as a parent, thinking honestly about the tragedy that fell upon Stamford, I would want the Superheroes to stand up and be held accountable. I understand that the good that Superheroes accomplish usually far outweighs the bad, but for every cosmic level threat that is averted, think how many mundane accidents could be prevented by training Earth's heroes to be better equipped, trained and qualified to handle the things that they put on the capes for in the first place.
It is one of those rare issues that really gets one thinking if we take the time to really ponder the implications. Of all the Heroes in this war, I feel closest to the Thing. He is totally on the fence and being pulled strongly in both directions. His heart tells him one thing and his brain weighs in with the total opposite. I'm right there with him. As I write this I feel strongly about my opinions, but I know that if one of you Resistance backers were to speak up with a well thought out counter opinion, I could be swayed. And that is exactly where I think Thing is at right now. He doesn't know what to listen to, his head or his heart.
Do I like the Superhero Registration Act? No, but I understand it. Do I like Tony Stark right now? No, he is a smarmy politician with motives all his own that have yet to be truly revealed. He may yet have a trick up his armored sleeve that changes my opinion of him, but I haven't seen it yet. I hate that I am on his side, but I am. Much like Spider-man I suppose, who yes, I feel is the emotional crux of this war. He is the one hero with the most to lose by signing on the line, and he is going to pay the ultimate price before all is said and done. I love Spider-man, and I hate to think of anything bad happening to those close to him, but I think itâs inevitable.
Now for the comparison between the Super Hero Registration Act and the Mutant Registration Act, I don't think the comparison holds water. On one hand the government has decided to bring to task those that choose to wear tights and fight super crime. On the other hand, the government wanted to hold mutants accountable for simply being born different. It would be like the government registering all people of Middle Eastern descent versus registering sex crime offenders. Middle Easterners have no choice in their heritage or their genes, and can't help that a small section of their people have chosen a life of terrorism. While sex offenders choose to be sick and depraved perverts that prey upon the weak. Now I know it is quite harsh to compare Superheroes to sex offenders, but I think it well illustrates my point. The government can't round up groups of people based solely on the circumstances of their birth, but they certainly have the right and responsibility to hold people accountable for the actions that they choose to take.
Is Captain America wrong for standing up for his beliefs? I do not believe so. Often in the past he has butted heads with his superiors because when put simply, Captain America wants this country to be perfect. But unfortunately nothing is perfect. The way things should be and the way they are, are more often than not, two different things. But even though the Star Spangled Avenger has the right to stand up for what he believes, I donât think that his beliefs are right. Cap is trying to protect citizenâs civil liberties, but the problem that I see is that vigilantism is not one of our inalienable rights. In fact, Iâm pretty sure it is still illegal in this country. Just because the government has let it slide for thirty years because it has suited their best interests doesnât mean its right, or legal. And now that the public has finally called for Superhero regulation in light of recent tragic events, our elected public officials have the responsibility to act on the publicâs wishes. Even if our Sentinel of Liberty has other ideas.
As for the sighting of one of Earthâs long missing heroes at the recent battle at the Geffen-Meyer Chemical facility, it seems that he is definitely connected to the S.H.I.E.L.D. project, Codename Lightning. Just how he is connected to Iron Manâs Registration task force is yet to be seen.
- Enchantress - 07-27-2006
Ok, I can get what you're saying about the comparsion between the two registration acts, but it still doesn't change my opinion on it all.
Which side would I fall on, easily... Captain America's. Why? Because it isn't that Cap expects America to be perfect, it's that Cap's ideals are those of the 1940s, when America was a "teenager" if you will. Do I think we can benefit from looking at America's past and seeing the mistakes we've made and try to avert them? Sure, I think everyone does. And I think that's what Cap is trying to do. He's standing up for what he thinks is right, and I have to agree with him. I think making people register because they have superpowers is ridiculous. I think making mutants register for the way they were born is retarded. But I do think that have a registery of convicted or known villians is probably the way to go. I think forcing people to register is wrong. Absolutely Wrong. Sorry O' Mighty One, You'll never get me to agree with you on this. And the sad thing is, if this were real, we'd be sitting on opposite sides of the fence.
As much as I've always liked Iron Man, I feel the need to compare him to Gary Condit, or Ted Kennedy. He's in it for himself, will turn on people he's been friends with for decades, all to suit his own purposes. He's putting people's families on the line and I'm NOT cool with that.
As far as being a parent and Stamford. Yes, I completely understand and yes, I'd want the people involved to be held accountable. But just in the same way that people who lost relatives and loved ones in 9-11 want people to be held accountable. While the patriot in most of us agrees that "YES! We hunt down the Al Qadia and make them pay!" Would it be right to make people who have no connection with the incident register on a national registery of middle eastern descent? All because of the off chance they MIGHT have ties to it? That's the way I see this.
And maybe no one will agree with me, I'm not asking anyone to. But I think Tony Stark is a son of a *&$^ who's never once acted remotely patriotic, why start now?
Stark for President in 2008? ... Tony Stark, Secretary of Defense? Stark isn't going to do something without getting something. That's just how he is.
Viva La Resistance!
(to quote South Park)
- GlennWalker - 08-20-2006
After reading Thor's post there's one thing I don't get. Why is Captain America against registration? It's against his character and against his continuity. Since Bucky's death (yes, I know, I still don't buy it) Cap hasn't wanted to endanger the lives of children. He never let Rick Jones become his sidekick because of it. More recently he wanted to shut down the Young Avengers for the same reason. After the deaths in Stamford, cap should be in full agreement with a program that would train young heroes and keep mistakes (and deaths) like this from happening again.
Glenn
- Rhapsody's Scream - 09-24-2006
anyone read CW #4 yet?
Let's just say that there's a WHOLE lot going on in that issue...
first, [spoiler]Thor is back, but it'S not theThor, it's a Thor-clone that crazed Tony Stark made...[/spoiler]
next comes, [spoiler]the death of Goliath... killed by Thor-clone. Bill Foster - the sometimes reasearch partner of Pym and Stark and the former superhero was killed by an lightning blast in the chest.[/spoiler]
All this, of course, caused a lot of grief and caused some heroes to doubt their allegiances...
including [spoiler]Susan Storm and Johnny Storm who fianlly abandonned the FF to join the resistance.[/spoiler]
I think this book holds more important elements than the 3 prior issues who simply set up the events. This is truely the beginning of the important actions... only 3 issues of CW left!
- GlennWalker - 09-28-2006
I found it odd that [spoiler]Bill Foster had to be buried at giant-size. Doesn't Hank Pym have the power to not only shrink and grow himself, but other objects as well? He couldn't do that for a close friend? I also found the idea of Clor (clone Thor) outrageous. [/spoiler]Who does Tony Stark think he is? The Grant Morrison Batman?
Glenn
And another thing! - GlennWalker - 09-30-2006
Just re-read Civil War #4. I had to, my blood pressure was low and I needed it higher to take my meds. Believe me I wouldn't have read it by choice.
[spoiler]Iron Man beats the living sh!t out of Captain America. I mean he really hands his a$$ to him. [/spoiler]
In hindsight I tried to think of any regular Iron Man baddie Stark would treat similarly... that's right, couldn't think of a one. Not the Mandarin, not the Iron Monger, not even Thanos has taken the kind of butt-whupping Shellhead gave [spoiler]Cap[/spoiler].
Just tell why oh why in the name of Stan Lee this crap makes any sense at all.
Glenn
- Rhapsody's Scream - 10-04-2006
CW is one of the best, if not the best, crossover special in a very long time, it's the best one I've read in the few years I've been reading... despite a few (ok, a lot) of inconsistencies and continuity errors)
I agree that [spoiler]they should have shrunk Bill Foster, between the million or so size-changer using Pym particles in comicdom, one of them should have been able to do it... especially Pym who had that power a while back... (I don't know if he can still shrink people/things though)[/spoiler]
oh and [spoiler]Thor-clone and electro-Mjolnir aren't that great either... but I think they're trying to depict IM as a nutjob... I wouldn't be surprised if everyone ended up blaming him and he'd end up in a jail cell or a mental ward...[/spoiler]
I am very very very disappointed in the Civil War: Runaways & Young Avengers mini so far.... 3 of 4 have come out and there's not a whole lot that happened... plus the story has pretty much nothing to do with CW except for the reason of the presence of YA (and the villain) in LA.
[spoiler]also... since when is Wiccan an alien? that crazy dude kidnapped Karolina (a Majesdonian alien), Teddy (a Kree-Skrull mixed race alien) and Xavin (a Skrull) but why Billy? he's the supposed son of Scarlet Witch and Vision... not an alien? that puzzles me...[/spoiler]
Also, I'm not crazy about the art... it's so dark and grey... so depressing and lifeless...